Carnage's H22a Spool project *Pics* - Tuner-Junction

Team_Carnage · #1 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Alright, some of you guys already know me and about my proposed turbo setup, but it's been updated. I'm pretty comfortable with this setup, but I would really appreciate some moreSerious comments, ideas, or help from others regarding my blueprint setup. The more input the better.

After some thinking, I've decided to go with the Mahle 9:1 pistons even though I'm still kinda weary about them. At first I was going to go with my stock pistons @ 10.6:1, but then after asking around a lot of people kept saying "yea it's possible but it leaves less room for error" (which is true).

Also, a lot of people have been asking about the custom turbo manifold I'm using (4th pic below). I recently spoke with Jay, the designer of the manifold, hope this answer some of the questions posed to me:

Hey Marc,

I warranty the items for as long as the first owner has it in their possession. Everything is stainless (304-316). I can make your particular manifold to be AC compatible but it is a great help if you can run a half rad from a civic.

Take a look at more of my H-series work Thanks!!
Jay

This is one of his (AC-Compatible) H-series turbo manifold:

Goal:
300whp (conservative tune-daily driver)

Setup:
Stock H22a (Compression Test = 215-220 across)
Garrett T3/TO4E (57trim w/ .63a/r)
Mahle turbo piston 9:1 C/R (w/ pin & rings)
Custom style turbo manifold (see pic below)
Cutom 3" DP (w/electronic cutout)
Custom 2.5" charge pipes
Front mount intercooler (3" I/C piping)
P28 ecu (NepTune)
AEM 3 bar map sensor
Walbro fuel pump 255 LPH
Greddy catch can
1000cc Rc injectors
Ngk Non-Resistor Race plugs
TiAL 38mm wastegate
TiAL 50mm blow off valve
Oil line kit
Moroso oil pan
H23 Tranny (possibly w/ OBX LSD)
8lbs Fidanza Flywheel

Pic of my proposed custom manifold & dp

Questions:

- Is there anything I should include or not include in my setup? Anything I should be aware of?

- I'm leaning towards the Greddy Profec E-01 boost controller. Yes, No? Anything else better in that price range?

njn63 · #2 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 01:33 PM

some of the parts you got are a lot more serious than i'd expect for 300whp. Not saying that's a bad thing because you won't have to upgrade a whole lot for bigger power down the road, just kinda weird to me.

I don't think you'll need 1000cc injectors for 300whp either but i guess it's better to go too big than too small.

Also, any reason for the Moroso oil pan?

And make sure to get a dump tube for your wastegate and dump it at least under the car. You probably were planning this but i didn't see it on your list.

Rhythm Kid · #3 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 01:41 PM

That thing is gonna be a beast....

What power differences would you notice if you use the A/C compatible turbo manifold opposed to the other one? Daily drivers should always have some A/C yeah? =3

Team_Carnage · #4 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njn63

some of the parts you got are a lot more serious than i'd expect for 300whp. Not saying that's a bad thing because you won't have to upgrade a whole lot for bigger power down the road, just kinda weird to me.

I don't think you'll need 1000cc injectors for 300whp either but i guess it's better to go too big than too small.

Also, any reason for the Moroso oil pan?

And make sure to get a dump tube for your wastegate and dump it at least under the car. You probably were planning this but i didn't see it on your list.

1000cc injectors are for the (I'm not satisfied scenerio). So if I wanted to later build up the block to handle more boost, the 1000cc would already be there. 550cc would have easily suffice.

What are some of the things that look overwhelming for 300whp?

The dump tube for the wastegate is a definate must. How for down should the tube placement extend to avoid gases coming back to the bay area? I can never get a pic of someone's wastegate dump tube.

The oil pan is just b/c I always wanted one...

njn63 · #5 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 02:22 PM

the manifold seemed like a little bit overkill for 300whp also. It won't hurt at all, much the opposite, it's just i'm kinda used to seeing them on 500hp+ cars

Team_Carnage · #6 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhythm Kid

That thing is gonna be a beast....

What power differences would you notice if you use the A/C compatible turbo manifold opposed to the other one? Daily drivers should always have some A/C yeah? =3

None. The only difference of the two has to deal with the difference in design to accommodate the space available in the engine bay. A/C is preference. If you live in Nevada or somewhere hot then A/C would be useful.

jadkar · #7 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 02:58 PM

I love it......

you do know however you're gonna blow right by 300hp

#8 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 03:31 PM

you are going to go very well past 300whp your going to be looking 350whp 400 pending on how much boost you run, but I noticed theres nothing there for the head. Just pistons. No connecting rods etc. Its not needed all but it plays a part in the life and length of time the motors going to run.

Its like this. That motor wasnt made for boost. Your going to be running boost in it. You need to change out the parts for parts that are going to handle boost for miles to come.

IE convert it to a turbo motor.

You will no matter how good the tune, eventually blow becuase the motor wasnt made for boost. Its CR is to high, I see you have some pistons for that.

Just because you put parts onto a NA car doesnt mean its a turbo motor now.
You need internals that are appropreaite for a turbo motor....and thats just not NA internals. You need stronger internals.

But the set up will deff exceed your goals.
I just believe if its going to be done, do it right

NegroDamus · #9 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Goal:
300whp (conservative tune-daily driver)

Setup:
Stock H22a (Compression Test = 215-220 across)
Garrett T3/TO4E (57trim w/ .63a/r)
Mahle turbo piston 9:1 C/R (w/ pin & rings)
Custom style turbo manifold (see pic below) - Bling factor yes, needed for 300whp no. That mani is expensive im sure, I would suggest using a log or inline pro mani and save 500bux+
Cutom 3" DP (w/electronic cutout)
Custom 2.5" charge pipes
Front mount intercooler (3" I/C piping)
P28 ecu (NepTune)
AEM 3 bar map sensor - Just use a GM3bar that you can get at any gm dealer or local parts store for less than 80bux
Walbro fuel pump 255 LPH
Greddy catch can
1000cc Rc injectors - You wont need anything bigger than 650cc for 300whp, 650cc still leave room for more power (round 450whp)
Ngk Non-Resistor Race plugs - NGK B7RE will work fine
TiAL 38mm wastegate
TiAL 50mm blow off valve
Oil line kit
Moroso oil pan
H23 Tranny (possibly w/ OBX LSD)
8lbs Fidanza Flywheel

Blake · #10 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadkar

I love it......

you do know however you're gonna blow right by 300hp

not true. Guy i know has been running 328whp on his lude for over a year now. Stock motor. AEM EMS tuning.

Beyond that, he is going to be running Neptune which in itself means you are going to have one HELL of a tune.

NegroDamus · #11 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake

not true. Guy i know has been running 328whp on his lude for over a year now. Stock motor. AEM EMS tuning.

Beyond that, he is going to be running Neptune which in itself means you are going to have one HELL of a tune.

What what what?

One hell of a tune? like is going to rock or its going to be a pain to tune it?

#12 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 04:39 PM

You're over preparing the motor in places you shouldn't and under prepping in the places were reliability and how long it's going to run come into play. That header, oil pan, electric cut out and 1000cc injectors weren't cheap and would have easily been enough money for you to throw in some rods and have the block prepped, sonic checked and even bored out some if you wanted. And you didn't list anything about any head work, cams or valve springs which should be a higher priority than all the things listed above. Anyways just my .02 cents. Good luck.

Team_Carnage · #13 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 04:53 PM

This is exactly the kind of feedback I've been wanting....I'll respond to all your posts later tonight. I have to run some errands first. Keep them coming

XLR8 · #14 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Things I did not see listed:
-External wastegate
-BOV

That mani is a work of art

Those injectors are very extreme for your setup, even if you decide to boost more.

I would have got a cheaper log style mani (shine don't mean shit), and 650cc injectors as stated, then had extra cash for things like what I listed.

NegroDamus · #15 (**permalink**) March 16th, 2006, 05:20 PM

He had both the wastegate and bov listed.

Team_Carnage · #16 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotboost98

you are going to go very well past 300whp your going to be looking 350whp 400 pending on how much boost you run, but I noticed theres nothing there for the head. Just pistons. No connecting rods etc. Its not needed all but it plays a part in the life and length of time the motors going to run.

Its like this. That motor wasnt made for boost. Your going to be running boost in it. You need to change out the parts for parts that are going to handle boost for miles to come.

IE convert it to a turbo motor.

You will no matter how good the tune, eventually blow becuase the motor wasnt made for boost. Its CR is to high, I see you have some pistons for that.

Just because you put parts onto a NA car doesnt mean its a turbo motor now.
You need internals that are appropreaite for a turbo motor....and thats just not NA internals. You need stronger internals.

But the set up will deff exceed your goals.
I just believe if its going to be done, do it right

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantapart Built

You're over preparing the motor in places you shouldn't and under prepping in the places were reliability and how long it's going to run come into play. That header, oil pan, electric cut out and 1000cc injectors weren't cheap and would have easily been enough money for you to throw in some rods and have the block prepped, sonic checked and even bored out some if you wanted. And you didn't list anything about any head work, cams or valve springs which should be a higher priority than all the things listed above. Anyways just my .02 cents. Good luck.

I want to try doing this on a stock block. Two reasons, I want to see what I can get out of it (conservatively), and lack of funds. I'm saving up to buy a house. This little project itself is pushing the limits of my wallet but I still want to do it.

I'm not ruling out the Ferrea valves and Skunk 2 valve springs & titanium retainers I had my eye on for a while, But that all comes down to how my money is looking. But I do understand where you guys are coming from.

Team_Carnage · #17 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njn63

the manifold seemed like a little bit overkill for 300whp also. It won't hurt at all, much the opposite, it's just i'm kinda used to seeing them on 500hp+ cars

Quote:

Originally Posted by NegroDamus

Goal:
300whp (conservative tune-daily driver)

Setup:
Custom style turbo manifold (see pic below) - Bling factor yes, needed for 300whp no. That mani is expensive im sure, I would suggest using a log or inline pro mani and save 500bux+

Ok here's the deal with the manifold, I've witness many debates over log/cast VS tubular.....which is more ideal performance and quality wise. Honestly I feel tubular is the way to go for the most power. However log style manifold aren't that bad either and a lot less expensive. The main reason I didn't want to mess with a cast manifold is because most of the designs out there suck. Specifically the placement of the wastegate flange... Negro pointed out inlinepro. So I checked it out and noticed that the wastegate placement is perfect on all of their styles, and the mani I'm interested in is less expensive. So I think I'm gonna go with inlinepro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLR8

Things I did not see listed:
-External wastegate
-BOV

That mani is a work of art

Those injectors are very extreme for your setup, even if you decide to boost more.

I would have got a cheaper log style mani (shine don't mean shit), and 650cc injectors as stated, then had extra cash for things like what I listed.

TiAL 38mm wastegate
TiAL 50mm blow off valve

I think I'll simmer down on the injector size. I should be good with 650cc.

NegroDamus · #18 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2006, 11:44 AM

Inline pros are good, Im running one now and I was using an equal length one before and there is no noticeable difference in power, and spool time is actually quicker now.

I bet you can find a used one for cheap. I found a cast stainless steel one with a waste gate elbow already welded on for 200bux. Just make sure you get a stainless one incase you need to weld an elbow on it.

njn63 · #19 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2006, 12:07 PM

you can also get a tubular style log instead of a cast manifold. I agree that it's a restriction but it'll also spool quicker AND it'll be about 1/2 to 1/3 of the money. You aren't really doing anything crazy (yet) so a log manifold would work find.

Team_Carnage · #20 (**permalink**) March 17th, 2006, 12:12 PM

Everyone interested in this thread should take a look at this:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1171997&page=1

The graphs and pics are down now but basically he was putting down 442whp his setup:
Stock H22a Except Type S cams.
One-fab top mount manifold
3" open DP.
full 3" I/C piping.
gt3767 T4
1000cc Precision injectors
Denso 3g rx7 pump
Some random I/C
knock-off of PTE Large Core.
Stock Intake Manifold
Stock Throttle body
Stock Head
Stock Dist.

The motor eventually did go....however it wasn't b/c of what people expected. He explains it here:

This One:
The motor finally let Go unfrotunatly At the North Carolina NOPI Race. Was in the burnout box and it just died. A retainer Broke in two and let go of a valve. Trashed the head, the bottom end, and the turbo. Come to find out, the head on the car was a head that i obtained with a missing valve. I replaced that missing valve with a one out of my F20B head with, spring, retainer and all. Turned out to be the one retainer that broke. I was on the stock h22 because my F20B Did the same thing. Two broken motors, two broken f20b retainers. So note to self DO not USE any F20B valvetrain components for anything! Aside from all the valve Damage, the Motor still looked healthy. No signs of any excess heat or Detonation. Cylinders looked completly normal. Pistons are spotless

The Car did Go 10.7 @ 134 with i think lots left in it that weekend. The pass previously before the 10.7 pass I missed 4th and went 11.0 @ 120. My 1/8 mph was 5 mph higher on the 11.0 pass over the 10.7 pass as well as a tenth in ET difference. So It should have definalty gone a bit faster. Clutch Was barely there all weekend, we soaked it in Dr pepper before every run!

It will definalty go much much faster with the new motor

I'm not sure whether I believe him or not but if this happens to be the case...I applaud him because that's just sick.