The new engine build thread

[Pooch 1069]

Do you have any parts that you're getting rid of from your ITR motor?

[jadkar]

Possibly....


For sure......
3 good ITR pistons
ITR valve springs / retainers
12 supertech valves

maybe....
ITR rods
ITR crank
440cc RC engineering injectors
ACT Heavy duty clutch with hybrid disc

I still have...
ITR oil pump
ITR intake cam

[njn63]

Originally Posted by jadkar

440cc RC engineering injectors

Depending on if those are available... and how my plans over the winter formulate... i might be talking to you about those.

[jadkar]

Only one day has gone by and I'm already tossing things around. I spoke to Endyn and they are not too happy about me going with a 92mm stroker with the SC. However I am having an awesome conversation on HT with some of the "lords of SC". These 3 dudes Veris, sc4dr, and RCMDaniels. All three of these guys have different types of built engines with RCM having something very wild. He has a 2.1lt LHT SC with Endyn porting. He has reached the blower efficiency so he is having a custom Eaton M92 blower made. That thing is gonna rock, possibly able to put out around 18-20psi!!

sc4dr has a blown 81bore x 95mm HUGE stroker and Veris runs a 85bore x 87.20 stroke with LHT. These guys are super knowledgeable. Here's the conclusion I just came to over there and my question to them........


excerpt from HT.....

sc4dr - I'm very interested in your setup. Are you really running a 95mm crank with the stock deck height?? Your rod ratios must be super low. Also, what's up with the really under-square configuration? Why not bore it out? Is the block not sleeved? How many miles with the setup and what type of racing do you do? (sorry for all the questions, I'm an info whore )

I have to say between the 3 of you guys the information has been extremely helpful, I just wish we had a separate thread for this. I may create one very shortly, but I have no idea where to put it
Anyway, here's my toss up right now with block configurations .....

#1
85mm or (86mm) bore x 92 crank = 2088 (2138)
5.531 rod length
rod ratio = 1.53
pistons at 11:1 (or somewhere close)
ls crank / endyn stepper / 3.6 nose pulley
power estimates based on old setup.. 2088cc (313whp / 221 ft/lbs) - 2138cc (320whp / 226 ft/lbs)
Concerns: short rod length, TDC dwell time, can I rev to 8500RPM? cylinder wall stress, if I go 86mm bore is it safe??, blower CFM with large cc

#2
85mm or (86mm) bore x 89 crank = 2020 (2068)
5.531 rod length
rod ratio = 1.58
pistons at 11:1 (or somewhere close)
ls crank / endyn stepper / 3.8 nose pulley
power estimates based on old setup.. 2020cc (302whp / 214 ft/lbs) - 2068cc (310whp / 219 ft/lbs)
Concerns: piston strength with high wrist pin location, if I go 86mm bore is it safe??, will I be satisfied after spending $$$
Once more ....... comments please

[njn63]

are you basing the hp/tq estimates on just the displacement? Or are you taking into account the difference the stroke will make (tq wise and limiting the rpm)?

[macbasq]

i'd have to agree with edyne on questioning stroking it and supercharging it. if you stroke it, you're going to increase your piston speed and increase friction, so at higher RPMs you'll be generating way more heat than you are now. aside from that, you'll be putting more stress on the cylinder walls. throw a supercharger into the mix, and you've already got a big heat generator, plus the boost is added stress on the motor. i feel like you'd need to definitely drop the rev limit to keep it dependable, but with all that heat you might be pinging after a lap around the track.

[jadkar]

Originally Posted by njn63

are you basing the hp/tq estimates on just the displacement? Or are you taking into account the difference the stroke will make (tq wise and limiting the rpm)?

Njn - These are purely estimates, actually more like guesses. They are based purely on displacment. There is no engineering involved in these numbers. I just took my current HP and torque divided the number by my current displacement. Once I got that number I then multipled it by my new displacement. Obviously with the stroker I will have more torque then the non-stroker. This is very non-scientific.

Mac - Yeah, as you can see in my "concerns" I am already thinking about these things. However, there are people who are doing it. The one dude is running a 95mm crank with a stock deck height!! That's just nuts!! In all honesty thought the rod length is not that bad. It's still within reason. Torque would be nasty!!

[njn63]

if it's sleeved though.. the cylinder wall stress isn't a big deal. It will generate a little extra heat and wear a little sooner but i'd almost say that's negligable. Everything does add up but... i'm always a little skeptical of Endyn for some reason.

[jadkar]

The other big thing about pinging is that with a long stroke I will have a lower rod ratio which means shorter dwell time at TDC. Shorter dwell at TDC equals higher chances of detonation especially at high RPM and boost.

All things to consider.

[macbasq]

Originally Posted by jadkar

Mac - Yeah, as you can see in my "concerns" I am already thinking about these things. However, there are people who are doing it. The one dude is running a 95mm crank with a stock deck height!! That's just nuts!! In all honesty thought the rod length is not that bad. It's still within reason. Torque would be nasty!!

ohhh i thought they were the concerns of the other guy, since it was all italicized. have they ever mentioned how they drive their rides though? are they DDs, drag cars, or track cars? i'm really surprised you're not being more conservative since this last set up grenaded on you.

[jadkar]

One of the guys road races, the others I have no idea. Yes this is a big factor though, I will be sitting at near full throttle for 20 minutes at a time!!


As far as my setup grenading. Liek 88Rex said earlier, my engine was basically stock. The only reason the head was even sent to the machine shop is because when I was going all motor the jerk off fags at RPMNYC told me to buy Supertech valves (suck ass 2 piece design). If I would have just left the ITR valve train alone this would have never happened. The engine was built proof right up to the end. Sucks what one bad valve will do

[88 rex]

Dart tall block. It will give like an extra 12mm in deck height.....mwahahahha.....mwahahahhahah

Do it! Do it! Do it!


Of the options listed I'd be tempted to go with #2 and the 85mm bore. But that is just my off the cuff answer.

[88 rex]

Have you pulled the head yet to assess the damage?

[macbasq]

Originally Posted by jadkar

One of the guys road races, the others I have no idea. Yes this is a big factor though, I will be sitting at near full throttle for 20 minutes at a time!!


As far as my setup grenading. Liek 88Rex said earlier, my engine was basically stock. The only reason the head was even sent to the machine shop is because when I was going all motor the jerk off fags at RPMNYC told me to buy Supertech valves (suck ass 2 piece design). If I would have just left the ITR valve train alone this would have never happened. The engine was built proof right up to the end. Sucks what one bad valve will do

yeah, it might not have happened. i don't know why they wanted you to use those to begin with. you would have gotten better gains from spending your money on something else. i just don't see the point unless you already had something going on. that's just me though.

if you're going to be running it at a track and really want to touch some high RPMs, you could bore it and destroke it... but i don't even know if you can find a crank that would do that. anyone know what the maximum safe bore you can go in this block before it gets sketchy?

[88 rex]

Originally Posted by macbasq

if you're going to be running it at a track and really want to touch some high RPMs, you could bore it and destroke it... but i don't even know if you can find a crank that would do that. anyone know what the maximum safe bore you can go in this block before it gets sketchy?

That would be equivalent to boring a B16b. The r/s of a stock B16b is roughly 1.86 so you would have incredible reving abilities with somewhere in the 1.8l range I guess. Is that right?

Sounds like a great little set-up.



Hey John, I read that thread and I'm just wondering what blower you intend to go with. Those guys made some good points with the blower capacities. It could be a costly effort for just a few hp and increased risk of future mishaps. IMO, it seems like the stock crank or a balanced LS crank are they way to go.

[njn63]

plus, torque is pretty important in a track car. Coming out of corners, uphill, etc.

[88 rex]

^

Especially for heavy ones.




Sorry couldn't resist. It's the only thing I have on you.

[street_accord94]

Ive seen shops set dartons b18 limits out at 85.5mm but theyre produced for an 85mm max

[jadkar]

Will - Nice that you read that thread, but I doubt you read all 212 pages Anyway, those guys are pretty cool!! As far as the blower, I have to wait and see how RCM does with his M90 blower that's the way to go!! However, I'm not convinced about the maximum CFM of my little M62.

As your read in that thread my engine will require about 350-400CFM at 100% VE (100% VE will never happen) The M62 at 15K RPM puts put about 500 (rough number I don't feel like reading the thread again). Make a long story short, I'm right at the limit.

Veris was trying to prove a point by saying that RCM should be putting out way bigger numbers and it must be the CFM efficiency of the M62 blower giving up but I'm not convinced. There are way too many other contributing factors. I mean Veris has a 85 bore 87.2 stroke engine (1979cc) running at 10 psi (nasty pulley combo) His M62 is ported and he's LHT intercooled as well. He's putting down 275whp and 200ft/lbs of torque. I would imagine he should have way more than me. Before my engine said goodbye I had 191ft/lbs and 269whp and I only have 1797cc and 9-9.5psi with no ported blower. So what I'm trying to say is every engine is different and I don't know why RCM doesn't produce more power but then again I don't know why I made so much. Tune maybe???

So for the CFM of the M62 I think I'm OK at least up to 2088cc. As for the tall deck Dart block, I'm starting to read bad things about them.

Mac - It depends on what block you are talking about. The stock Honda B18/B16 can safely be bored to 82mm and that's it. The CRV block is 84mm from the factory and can be bored to 85mm but you REALLY have to make sure the block is a good straight piece and you should "post" the block for added strength. As for the sleeved blocks, they can be bored to 87mm however it has been noted by many that 85mm is the safest and 86mm is marginal.

[jadkar]

In case anyone was interested here's my last dyno run before the engine failed. My torque was up to 190ft/lbs and the max hp stayed the same, but you can see that I gained all over the place since my last dyno run (last dyno is the faint line).

Click For original image