I totally agree, i was just making the point that he will have to spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars to assemble a LS head that could flow as well as a VTEC head. Even after the flow work, like you said, It wont have the multiple cam profiles. No VTEC, no BIIGG power. I have never seen it done reliably. period.

Thing is that having vtec doesnt mean big power. all vtec is in actuallity is that the cam switches to a slightly higher cam profile when itcrosses over from a small fuel efficient lobe to a more aggressive powerfull lobe on the same cam. have you ever heard of the vtec killer cams?? They are a huge lobe that is bigger than the vtec lobe but there is no smaller lobe so in essence the car is always "in vtec". Vtec is for people who do alot of daily driving and dont wanna drive aggressively all the time and helps with emissions and fuel effeciency.

__________________

I thoroughly understand the concept of VTEC, its designed to allow for both good torque, and inherently, fuel milage at low rpms while still offering a high metabolism cam profile for high rpms and maximum horsepower. We keep going back and forth on the VTEC issue, when really its not the switchover that nets the big horsepower, it is infact the enitre package that makes the power... better flow, agressive cam design (that still idles well) and allowance for very a wide range of engine speeds. You get two engines in one. Where the primary cam looses volumetric effciency, the VTEC cam comes in to make power. But a VTEC cam at low rpms runs like a poop. anyone with a VTEC controller will tell you that.

OHh believe me i know all about vtec running like shit at an rpm that is not meant to run. it happened to me when i built my engine. The vtec was set at the standard 4400rpm and i had skunk 2 stage two cams with a fully built head. Ran like ass from 4400 to 6krpm then it hauled ass. But in this case we arent talking about a daily driver here which is what im getting at. This car at 700whp will be more presumably a track car. Hence the drivability of the low vtec cam lobe wont be needed so technically if you fully build a non vtec head and use an extremely aggressive cam then you should be able to produce the power a vtec head can. even if you start with a vtec head you will still dump the cams for bigger more aggressive ones. If you tune the non vtec properly then the loss of power from running a huge cam in the lower rpm band wont be noticable since the block will be built to produce enough tq numbers that it will pull the shit right through and rev up fast enough that you will be in the lower band for maybe a second TOPS.
And about the original thing that started our debate which was the flow of the heads. Granted we all know the vtec head flows slightly better than an ls head It can be matched if you work the ls head. You have a small tq advantage with the ls block over the vtec motor if were talking about the gsr since the ls has slightly bigger displacement over the gsr. The gsr if broken down is just around if not a hair under 1.8 the ls is over 1.8 but when rounded out they both end up in the 1.8l. The major issue with the ls motor that people dont like is the fact that it has an unstable power train. you, I and everybody who has ever driven a teg or even looked into them will know this. The other thing is that alot of people think that vtec is the end all of honda engine power making. There are plenty of motors that arent vtec that make tremendous power but im know your aware of that so i dont need to go into it.


in the end ide like to see somebody build a non vtec motor n/a that can produce that kind of power i know its possible. Is it easy? No. Is it possible? Yes.

__________________

let me put this arguement to rest now.
The numbers he wants are completly possible especially on a boosted build.


Evans Tuning • View topic - Eg hatch, Stock sleeve LS engine, 460whp/385tq, neptune

If you can do that with an almost stock ls engine i dont see why he cant hit 700 with a bully built motor.

Evans Tuning • View topic - Integra LS, FR turbo kit, neptune, 380whp/315tq


Evans Tuning • View topic - Stock block Ls, 17lbs pump gas, Neptune, 295whp/290tq


If these numbers are possible with those kinds of set ups then why isnt 700whp possible with a full head on aggressive build????? This question is for everybody that said it wasnt very probable.

__________________

Anything is possible. I hope the non-VTEC build goes well. Best of luck dadsdx.

Anythnig is deff possible. Aslong as you have lots of money. Btw You guys should check out that site its full of helpfull info and that guy Jeff is regarded as the top honda tuner on the east coast just ask jadkar. That man can tune with the best of them.

__________________